Saturday, 28th February 2009: Oi! The Eastern Shout, Melaka

Joe

Joe hoards and shares.

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34 Responses

  1. thilaga says:

    what about anti-sexist views? is that acceptable?
    i am the only one who thinks that putting up a picture of a macho tattooed guy holding a girls ass on a poster is offensive?
    the poster is really sexist!

  2. asa takkan mati says:

    with seeing both of them smiling, i don’t think that picture is sexist. though it’s pretty sexy. 🙂

  3. Joe says:

    What do you think people? I would love to see more comments here.

  4. shahrizal says:

    frankly speaking, rozaimin donated some money from his own pocket for the upcoming diy femme fest. he really supports the cause. i don’t think the image is sexist because its only potraying a skinhead and a skinhead girl having a good time. i dunno, maybe it’s just me

  5. alak says:

    With that kind of biceps,the guy looks sexier than the girl what,

  6. Fizan says:

    I just met Syukri last nite, and here’s what he said to me “Don’t think twice, it’s all right Pijan”
    Well for me, to combat sexism is more than just giving this so righteous comment on this page. You better talk to your college-peer, workmates, family member, this long-time-no-see friends, your mom n dad who feed your life like there’s no life without them, your younger sister who just learn to clubbing in DV8, or your 15-yrs old brother who just learn to skate n buy an expensive skate shoes for the sake of being acceptance n looks like ones.
    Do you believe in polygamy? What’s your definition on sexism people? Lots of readers here I guess is still blurred on what exactly “sexist” are. I would love to hear more views too (after dropping my own comment).

    be smart, be real,
    bastard son.

  7. asa takkan mati says:

    that’s no sexist. that’s LOVE dude! honestly.

  8. rizie says:

    ok.next comment please… 🙂

  9. trashkore says:

    wow

    i didnt even notice the ass grabbing till Thilaga mentioned it.

    theres a huge discussion debate on sexim on lioncitydiy.com, go check it out. the comments i will make will cause this page to hang so go to this link

    http://lioncitydiy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1695&start=66

    personal opinion? i wonder HOW THE HELL this can go on in a studio. polis tak datang kot?

  10. trashkore says:

    also people must recognize, that while the ‘fuck homophobia, sexism, racism’ motto still stands true, new kids and new generations of punks, skins and rebels get into the scene ALL THE TIME.

    there is no perfect punk scene everywhere in the world. it is a long, perhaps endless struggle.

  11. alind says:

    first of all the picture can be blatantly sexist… and not.
    i realise if to further replying to this might turn out to be another continous weak heterosexual male defensive effort. but let me try…

    i would want to ask if what thilaga questioned here were the obvious and/or symbolic relationship of power that portrays in the picture ‘the hand on ass’, ‘the tattooed muscle + guy’s eyebrow up + thumbs up’ / or the way they dress and look and hold each other. knowing thilaga, i think it’d probably be the former. yes power dynamic between man and woman has really got to end. but pointing it to a picture would ring another issue… and no sexism is not that simple anymore.

    i wonder if you’d say the same thing if to put in another situation if the girl in the picture wearing tudung for example. but what i wanna say here is not as simple moral dress code…

    whooops.. times up i gtg. will continue later… quick note: thilaga i think by saying that you would also be perpetuating censorship somehow.. i dunno… i might be wrong. but i think living in malaysia, we need to see more tits and ass (yeah.. that’s including man’s too), the censorship is too much to bear….

  12. Fizan says:

    Hoi Rizie! Bagi lah komen kau sikit kat sini jadi wakil dumdumtak! Kata band political punkrock..hehehehe

    “I’m tired of talking. I just wanna get up to my shack and get drunk… ” Kurt Russell, The Thing

  13. thilaga says:

    Hmmm… I have so many things to say. I guess I will just vomit out everything that I told some friends as I saw the comments coming.

    Firstly, I would like to point that I only questioned about the poster and not anyone in particular. But since we are at it I would like to say that I find it pretty disturbing that we think someone can do no wrong because the persun supports the cause. I think we all need to re-look this. How do we define supporting the cause? I know giving money is one way but is that all? And just because the persun donates money, or is influential in a community doesn’t mean that they are always right and cannot be corrected. This goes to me and everyone else. We all can go wrong every now and then. That’s how we all learn, don’t we? There are so many politicians who give money for breast cancer and whatever but they are still womynizers.

    The other thing is that I find it rather ridiculous when we say, “oh, it’s just two skinheads having a good time.” You see, here we are allowing sexist and patriarchal behavior to continue by saying that, “oh well, it happens” No! It is unacceptable! It doesn’t matter what culture, sub-culture, or community they belong to; if they are sexist, homophobic, racist, fascist, or whatever then something should be done about it. We can’t shrug it off. How are we possibly gonna abolish sexism and patriarchy if we let things by when it is right in front of our faces?

    Even if the girl were to wear a tudung and jubah or whatever, I would still be making the same noise. It is not about what the girl is wearing but yeah, the power relations. Why do we have the need to portray womyn in a submissive, passive, being protected by a guy, timid kinda light? Why is that womyn have to be that way? The whole hand on the ass is a territorial/marking move. Like to say that, “she is mine.” And don’t tell me that in no way is patriarchal. And what’s with the thumbs up? It comes back to how we feel it is okay for womyn to play submissive roles. These are all the social construct that we want to abolish; womyn don’t have to be that way and men don’t have to play the macho, dominant role. If so, then why do we need to have such images?

    I have nothing against sexual expression which includes the way someone chooses to dress. I think people should be controlled to wear whatever that they want. (regardless I do think some garments are made to systematically control womyn). And alind, if so this is censorships, so are you then going to allow sexist images like that to be put up everywhere?

    And another thing. So you are gonna base whether something or the poster is sexist or not on opinions of a bunch of guys? Are you people not even gonna include opinions of womyn or transgender people? I dunno if I should say this but this could also be pretty patriarchal because you think your opinion represents opinions of everyone. For instances, by saying it is not sexist and therefore it isn’t. I know Joe said that lets get more comments. But I just wanna say this. We always assume men’s opinions are enough and it can represent everyone else. And yes, you may say, “its not our fault that womyn are not commenting or whatever”. But when somethings are so exclusive to some people, you can hardly find other people join in or participating. Same goes to this, when something is so much like a boys club, you can hardly find womyn around.

  14. Joe says:

    Thanks for the vomit, Thilaga! Very interesting to know what you see and deliberate beyond what others missed or wilfully ignore and dismiss. I believe there are many who saw the same but they are apparently not enraged nor they are bothered enough to have a good spiel about it.

    That is both good and bad, because sometimes we can go wayyyy too far up our arse being the righteous one, and on the other hand we can also be too far gone to care about that foul piece of shit sitting right on our noses.

    I’m one of those people who are not entirely at ease with the flyer but I’m giving it a bit of a slack. Tell ya the truth, I didn’t see the sexist part though. I thought it’s a good picture portraying the sad state of (young) people forever; where as a guy you gotta be macho, “manly” and zit-free good-looking, while as a girl you gotta have the “curves”, porcelain white complexion and that purring “demure” personality.

    It’s the idealised and enforced standards for everyone to adhere to and aspire for, and on this instance it’s the fantasy island for the skinheads – a tattooed brawny jock in braces cuddling a cutie-pie served in fishnet-stockings. What else do you want to be happy in life?

    Coming in on that “sexist” angle introduced, I believe I could be as “sexist” as the next person. I’d like to assure you that I’m not proud of it but a pretty woman walking by would turn my head, as much as a good-looking 12″ vinyl sleeve would turn my head or the smell of KFC would make me salivate. See I didn’t even spell “woman” as it should! I’ll go and beat the crap of myself now…

    BTW: The flyer is put there on the request of a friend and it’s there after two weeks of deliberation. Not an easy decision, that one. As at this moment I’m not even sure if it’s a good decision, and I don’t mean it’s because of the “sexist” connotations, my indecision is more about the whole street-fighting, brawn, boots and braces thing. I just don’t understand the need to belong in a herd.

  15. shahrizal says:

    thanks thilaga for sharing your thoughts. your explanations are very much clear to me now. i do agree that donating money doesn’t mean that that person really supports the cause and stuff like that. actually, the first few times looking at it didn’t do me anything. but a few times later, provided with your stands and explanations, yeah i think what you said are true too. this thing can be very subjective and it depends on how people look at it. very sorry if i offended you with my reply earlier. and yeah, i don’t mind if people want to correct me if i’m wrong 🙂

  16. trashkore says:

    interesting

    now has anyone read that multi opinionated and multi dimensional thread on lioncitydiy yet?

    i’d like to listen to some female opinions about this flyer though.

  17. Fizan says:

    Hey Shah!
    Yes man, Sherzo fukin classic. Kau layan Schelprock 1st album tak? dan Zoinks?? total pop punk madness . Aku tengah nak carik Swirly Potato Baked..ada jumpa?

    “Less talk, more rock” -Propagandhi

  18. chem says:

    yeah man,less talk more rock…..

  19. asa takkan mati says:

    thanks.

    honestly, that picture is so subjective. it depends on how people looking at it.

    you might see, this girl is in a submissive. that guy is leading her to bed. that’s wrong and it very wrong. you were displaying a very bad image on every skinheads and male.

    in other way, i think that it’s no wrong for people to have fun. yeah! it might “so machois picture” holding a girl, showing thumbs up, hands over ass but come on, don’t get them wrong. i believed they only want to show how fun the gig will be and should be. if they called it as fun, i’m sure they would love to do that, we can’t avoid people doing what things that they loved. as long as there’s no racism, sexism or whatever -ism, i’m totally fine with that. i don’t feel that in judging this picture as sexist, is right.

    all of you here – i do agree on your own perspective of this picture. you have my respect.

    however, it is still subjective. human to human basis.

    perhaps, we could have this picture creator to give some explainations here.

  20. thilaga says:

    hey, i wanted to reply but i have been quite busy with school and deadlines.

    i have been talking to a couple of friends about this and both of them seem to have two different ideas. a friend told me that there is nothing wrong with the picture and it is normal in their culture. not in a fucked way but in an empowering way not the other way round. and this friend also then educated me on the skinhead culture.

    then i had the same discussion with another friend of mine. this persun on the hand told me a whole different thing. like a total opposite which left me back to square one, going like, “okay.so….”

    to me, coming from an outsiders perspective, i saw the poster as pretty sexist. and i have given my reasons. and how i came about to know this pun was because some friends ended up showing me the flyer. they too thought it was not right. so i really dont know. i really need to study the culture and get to the bottom of this.

    i would like to say this, in no way, would i want to say that skinheads are fucked up and contribute to their bad image or any persun for that matter. because i know some people who are really nice. they even helped out during the anti homophobia thing. so you know what i am saying. my issue is just with the picture.

    and you are right, the creator or min can shed some light to this.

    i wanna go into this whole boring ass thing about “normative” shit and “image of womyn in school text books” and something else but i really dont have the time. will find some time.

  21. ronzaimin says:

    o.k,saya bercakap sebagai bukan dari band gang buster dan bukan skinhead.saya sebagai manusia biasa yg memberi pendapat.

    pengalaman saya banyak mengajar tentang erti hormat menghormati.pernah satu ketika dulu,saya telah berasa amat bersalah kerana memberikan flyer `metal` yang berupa tengkorak lembu kepada kawan saya.saya telah di persalahkan oleh kawan vegan saya kerana tengkorak lembu itu satu yang offensive.kali ini,flyer raba bontot juga diperjudikan oleh saya.hahah.(raba bontot buleh tanya jamaludin jarjis,dia lebih berhak kita tentang dari katun yang meraba bontot,tak gitu????)

    pandangan saya dalam poster ni adalah,satu gambaran bahawa manusia hidup dalam penuh kegembiraan.kepada mereka yg mempunyai teman wanita,teman lelaki,pasti rasa gembira dan salah satu tanda nyata adalah isyarat – `best`-`jari ibu` dan cap ngan yin(kacang tanah).saya yang tak berteman ini berasa cemburu dengan kartun itu.so,saya tidak nampak apa-apa yg patut ditentang dan diperhebahkan dari ini.jika saya salah,tolong betulkan.

    alin memberi pendapat – walaubagaimanapun situasi,isu dapat dikorek dan ditimbulkan demi satu-satu sebab.saya baru jugak bergiat dengan NGO di penang dan saya dapati,ada sejenis penyakit yang ada dalam diri manusia ini.sikap tidak puas hati,mencari kesalahan dan menimbulkan kontroversi.inilah caranya saya fikir,DAP dapat menawan negeri Penang.tahniah.

    derma saya kepada DIY femme fest takdak apa-apa pon.saya dapat gaji lebih,saya bagi.makan saya tak lari.keluarga saya bahagia,kawan-kawan saya happy,masyarakat tak bising.saya pun suka hati.apa sangatlah derma saya tu nak dibandingkan dengan demostrasi turun kejalan pelajar-pelajar di indonesia sehingga jatuhnya rejim suharto??.

    less talk,more rock….more Oi!,more Aggro Oi!!.

    saya buta english…harap maklum!!!.

  22. ronzaimin says:

    tambah satu lagi……sebagai tambahan.

    apa yg datang dari politikus adalah sangat berbeza dengan apa yg datang dari rakyat.jika kamu berfikiran atasan,kamu akan fikir,kelebihan akan diberikan kepada kamu jika kamu memberi bantuan kepada seseorang.ini adalah rasuah.

    jika sebagai rakyat,ini adalah satu sumbangan yang besar dan saya berbanga dapat memberi sumbangan kearah malaysia yang lebih baik dimasa hadapan.

    tunjuk sana-tunjuk sini…apa yg kita buat??.hahahaha.

  23. rizie says:

    disebabkan pijan dah petik nama saya,suka disini saya nak paste lagu “Hak Asasi Hiprokrasi” dendangan dari anak-anak Kugiran Dum Dum Tak.

    (You live with basic rights ideas, at the same time you don’t care about humanity. You practise tyranny. You discriminate, you are selfish, you can’t tolerate. So, you better forget about your fight because you are the one who will eventually demolish the basic rights)

    Walaupun engkau hidup berideologikan hak asasi
    Jika tidak mementingkan humanity
    Jika engkau berdasarkan pemikiran tirani
    Jika engkau masih ada benci-membenci

    Lupakanlah kerana engkau manusia
    Yang akan robohkan tembok hak ini

    Walaupun engkau hidup berideologikan hak asasi
    Jika engkau penting diri sendiri
    Jika engkau wujud diskriminasi
    Jika engkau tiada toleransi

    🙂

    nanti-nanti lah aku komen lagi..sangat busy ketika ini…enjoice

  24. thilaga says:

    i finally have the time and i have just one comment. i know people might have had enough of this but i still have a little something to say.

    look, these kinda of pictures/images without realizing is a way to make womyn look passive, submissive, and it is not empowering at all. yes, no womyn looks like that. agree with joe on that.

    you may think it is fine because we grow up in that sorta environment. images of womyn as such are plastered everywhere – billboards, ads, artworks, school textbooks and everywhere! in has become normative. something which is normal. so whats wrong with womyn being like that?

    you see right, no matter how empowered the womyn or how gembira the couple can be in the picture, it still gives out a fucking twisted message to people. kids might think that it is fine to behave that way. i making this comparison to all other ads and images that we see daily. e.g. womyn in a family household is always portrayed the one who is cleaning, cooking, jaga anak, and pendek cerita doing if not most all of the household chores. whereas the men are always reading the newspaper, washing the car, watching tv, overlooking womyn cooking or whatever. (you see how this becomes masculine and feminine chores.) do not even dare to deny this because i cant tell you for a fact that you have seen this in your school textbook, in ads (you can find this billboard of a dishwasher – the womyn tengah basuh basuh and then the man is like looking over her) and everywhere. this is how they tell you how womyn and men should act. and they enforce this subtly. for years now, womyn activist/feminist in this country have been urging the government to stop portraying womyn like that. why? because this becomes normative behavior. because we are so used to seeing this images, we think it is fine for womyn to carry out these duties. same goes to positions and the way womyn are drawn. yes, the womyn in picture can be fuckin empowered but it is not sending the right message. there can be so many men out there looking at that this is how a girl should be or this is how my partner should be. and the girls would think that this is fine.

    people, you gotta think deeper than just the picture. so many ads, so many images for so long have made womyn invisible, muted, silenced, and submissive. we have to look beyond pictures as just pictures. seriously.

    to min: hey, i am glad that you making all that money and you are well and so is your family. thats great. but what i am saying is people can be corrected no matter who they are and whatever their contribution they have made. i have objectified womyn and men in my daily conversations and people have told me that i was being sexist. so you learn and move on. dont do it again if whatever that yo have done has belittled someone. by no means i am saying that you giving money is wrong but i am just talking about the impression that people have had due to that.

    i hope the connection is clear and whatever that i have said is clear.

  25. thilaga says:

    this what happens when you do not recheck whatever that you have written before submitting…

    correction: do not even dare to deny this because i CAN tell you for a fact that you have seen this in your school textbook, in ads…

    and some other typos – too lazy to edit/correct.

  26. thilaga says:

    this is upon your request as well. fucking hell alind, i thought you were gonna fucking reply?!! leave me hanging. alind, cepat reply! asyik myspace, ym je!

  27. trashkore says:

    Thilaga – i find it extremely intriguing how firstly you could make out the hand on the pantat. i didnt see it at all. it is nothing compared to a lot more posters,flyers i’ve seen.

    i find your eventual comments almost straight out from a book. not doubting you but it makes me wonder.

    granted sexism exists everywhere, and while its true that males have a responsibility to stop sexism, it is largely also the responsibility of females.

    its like saying to make the punk community better and stronger, the state and cops must ‘relek sikit’.

    if females want a male hand on their ass and feel sexy and empowered, macam mana? kita nak buat apa? cakap tak boleh?

    one time my female friend was crying about some personal issue, i sat down beside her talked to her and all. an hr after that she thanked me and put her hand around me, i felt her hand on my pantat.

    macam mana tu?

    sexist? ke sexy? ke tak sengaja? atau in a deeper perspective it was just ‘nothing’?

    i saw it as ‘nothing’.

    so do i have a problem too?

  28. pika says:

    hey there..
    a bit late to interrupt but i just wanna share my personal view on this
    whole thing.

    first thing is first. there is no right or wrong to an opinion.
    each should be respected as different individuals have different point of view on how they
    see and analyse a situation.agreeing and not agrreing is up to you lah.
    respect paling penting.

    like how some people thinks that porn is degrading the image of womyn while some sees it as an empowerment.

    same goes for the picture.

    but, personally, i see it as a macho guy(or rather a perfect image of a guy) with his excited girlfriend.
    and based on the arched eyebrow and hand sign, its as if hes trying to say;
    ‘look at me, with my perfect partner, barang baek punya!’..’jangan jeles,hihihihi’.
    its sort of objectifying the grrl as well. that is, based on his gesture.

    but it could also be, ‘look at us.we are having a fun time, you should too!’

    other than that,it looks like the grrl is having a fun time as well. (although she does seem to be floating..hehehe)

    anyway, thats how i see it lah..and may i add, both of the image potrays a perfect figure of how a man and a grrl is lah..you know, big biceps and nice ass..

    but, overall,i think the message is to have fun, both grrls and boys.maybe, some other image would be more appropriate next time.

    it is sort of objectifying and misleading,sending diffrent
    messages to different people, no matter how fun and happy thier expressions are.

    however, i dont think the organizer meant it in that way though.

    okaylah, it just another grrl’s opinion…me.

  29. alind says:

    wtf… yeah!! few reasons why i feel oblige to reply 1) i am always busy cekiduting online. 2) see if any other girl beside thilaga will reponse to this *cough* 3) thinking back i shouldn’t have written what i wrote up there in the first place. i mean what the hell was i thinking 😛

    but since you asked me i ought to reply anyway kan… and hey, kenapa hang teruigh petik nama aku ni Min? siap promo DAP lagi. suruh DAP kasi settle kompaun aku kat penang boleh?

    thilaga dear… saying what you said regarding the picture does not make it automatically sexist. different people have different point of view. Though i do think your opinion is somewhat true and important, but it’s not final, an ultimatum – sexist to everyone. so, as long as this is true, it will forever put you and me at odd on to determine wheather or not this or that is really really sexist. Maybe i started to think this way as that not one single definition will fit for everyone. since it’ll make feminism sound like another religion.

    i have to admit that i myself have a mixed opinion on this and it’s obvious. In Japan, i met M from Spain and one fine day she asked me and everyone else in the house for our opinion about this one illustration appear on one of the no g8 comp. cd. Picture of 2 women in 2 different worlds. The first is a quite skinny one seen with peaceful background with nature, trees and all. and the other is totally the opposite, portrayed her as a fat woman with totally chaotic background imaginable. while most answers she got from us were that it’s a definite sexist, including all her band mates that totally rejected the cd that their band is in too, she gave us a simple answer that no, it don’t seem sexist to her (it is also interesting to note that the rest of her band member are all male). – i don’t intend to say that you haven’t been thinking deep, this is just to share what has somewhat effected the way i think now. i would want to try to explore on how to seeing things differently. like if you would want to apply a jungian analysis to the picture on the flyer, it’d appear as this could be a ‘projection’ of male ‘anima’ (expression of an inner feminine personality) equivalently ‘animus’ from female. though some of jung works have been reworked and/or criticized by some current feminist, i am yet to dicover the post-jungian feminist criticism from demaris s. wehr and the likes-guess you would now foccult me out in this. but yeah, if this is true, then it’ll help us develop our kepoh skill a lil’ bit more predicting that the dude that drew this picture must probably be one short guy huahaha…

    about saying if it’s tudung girl that is being portrayed… that was so silly of me to try to even relate it with your opinion. i couldn’t help seeing that it is like phenomenal woman wearing tudung now more than ever, when you can try carefully trace where it all started and no we’re not solely being influenced by the 1978 iranian revolution ppl. my theory is that it all began from the dude that drew the comic strip “aku dalam blues”, remember portrayal of most of his female character, tall, pretty and fair looking tudung girl? (and try to compare his with “tiga dara pingitan”), while no one one would daresay it’s wrong to wear tudung cause it’ll be likely to fall under the pretext of the freedom to wear and yeah of course tuntutan agama whatever… now if my theory approve to have some sense, this dude which i don’t even remember his name would be one successful bastard in massively realizing male idealistic fantasy…
    okay i’m digressing here… back to yming and downloading now…

  30. pika says:

    cough..facebooking lah.

  31. trashkore says:

    i like this discourse

    lots more girls giving strong intelligent and most importantly REALISTIC opinion on things. many years ago we didnt have this in Singapore-Malaysia.

    to me, beyond the hand on the pantat, the drawing itself could warrant a sexist argument.

    not all girls look as perfect as that, not all guys look as perfect as that too.

    note that the word *perfect* is subjective to opinion. the *perfect* image is the stereotypical image of how skingrrls and skinhead dudes should look like

    but thats another story for another time la wah lau eh

  32. ronzaimin says:

    sorry,saya tidak sexist.saya ulangi yg saya tidak sexist.

    apa yg saya kata,pasti ada saya yg tidak kena.kerana,sati phak bersetuju,dan satu lagi pihak tak bersetuju.jadi,masing-masing mahu membetulkan apa yg mereka pegang.

    apa yg dapat seseorang buktikan bahawa mereka tidak sexist??.
    apa pulak yg dapat dibuktikan bahawa mereka itu sexist?.

    tidak perlu saya ceritakan apa yg saya lakukan dipenang dengan komunity wanita di penang.jadi,tanya balik pada diri kita,apa yg kita lakukan,dan apa sumbangan kita kepada komunity punk/HC/feminist/society dan apa yg berkaitan dengan hidup kita.

    gambar itu disahkan oleh kawan saya bahawa ianya dipilik oleh missxmerc dan pak own(orang kedah…nama yg sangat tipikel…hahaha.).missxmerc adalah perempuan dan apakah ini…saya tidak faham.apakah dia tidak memiliki nilai kewanitaan yang dimiliki oleh thilaga atau….ntah…kita pikirkan sendiri!!!.

  33. zach says:

    “sending different messages to different people”

    A good phrase indicating this case and its equivalent. Way to go, Pika(chu).

  34. ronzaimin says:

    saya mengutuk perbuatan mengedar gambar bogel Eli Wong.kerajaan barisan nasional dah habis modal!!!.

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